NPR News:特朗普再出狂言 奥巴马和希拉里都是ISIS的缔造者

Donald Trump is in Florida today where once again he is making unbelievable claims. Sam Sanders has been with the Trump campaign for the last couple days and joins us now. Hi, Sam.
SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Hey, Ari.
SHAPIRO: So the Republican nominee said at a rally last night that President Obama was, quote, "the founder of ISIS." Obvious fact check here — President Obama did not found ISIS. Then today Trump went on the radio show of Hugh Hewitt, a sympathetic conservative, who tried to interpret the candidate's comments about Obama and Hillary Clinton for him.
(SOUNDBITE OF RADIO SHOW, "THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW")
HUGH HEWITT: I think I would say they created — they lost the peace. They created the Libyan vacuum. They created the vacuum into which ISIS came, but they didn't create ISIS. That's what I would say. But...
DONALD TRUMP: Well, I disagree.
HEWITT: All right, that's OK.
TRUMP: I mean with his bad policies — that's why ISIS came about.
HEWITT: That's...
TRUMP: If he would have done things properly, you wouldn't have had ISIS.
HEWITT: That's true.
TRUMP: Therefore he was the founder of ISIS.
SHAPIRO: OK, Sam, with that as a backdrop, how did Donald Trump handle this at the rally today?
SANDERS: Well, he doubled down. When he spoke this morning at the National Association of Homebuilders, he pretty much said the same thing, although a bit quieter. We have the tape here.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
TRUMP: Our government has unleashed ISIS. I call President Obama and Hillary Clinton the founders of ISIS. They're the founders.
SANDERS: And then he said that Hillary Clinton is, quote, "the MVP of ISIS" and that Obama is a close runner-up for that title. Keep in mind this is in a speech about the economy and the housing market, so if he's saying that here, we could expect to hear that for a while wherever he goes.
今天唐纳德·特朗普在佛罗里达州进行竞选活动，他再次说出令人难以置信的言论。这几天萨姆·桑德斯一直在追踪报道特朗普的竞选活动，现在他将和我们连线。你好，萨姆。
萨姆·桑德斯连线：你好，阿里。
夏皮罗：这位共和党总统候选人昨晚在一场集会活动上表示，奥巴马总统是“ISIS的缔造者”。很明显，事实是奥巴马总统并没有创建ISIS。今天，特朗普做客休·休伊特的广播节目，保守派主持人休伊特试图帮特朗普解释他对奥巴马和希拉里的评论。
（广播节目《休·休伊特秀》录音）
休·休伊特：我认为，他们没能保持和平。他们导致了利比亚的真空状态。正因为他们导致的这种真空，使ISIS乘虚而入，但是他们并没有创建ISIS。这就是我要说的，但是……
唐纳德·特朗普：我不同意你的说法。
休伊特：好吧。没关系。
特朗普：我的意思是他糟糕的政策导致ISIS的形成。
休伊特：这……
特朗普：如果他做了正确的事情，那ISIS就不会出现了。
休伊特：没错。
特朗普：所以他是ISIS的缔造者。
夏皮罗：好，萨姆，这是事件的背景，今天唐纳德·特朗普在集会活动中是如何处理这一问题的？
桑德斯：他再次重申了这一言论。今天早上他在全美房屋建筑商协会发表讲话时，几乎说了同样的话，不过语气更为平静。我们来听下录音。
（录音档案）
特朗普：我们的政府激发了ISIS的形成。我认为奥巴马总统和希拉里·克林顿是ISIS的缔造者。他们是缔造者。
桑德斯：然后他说，希拉里·克林顿是“ISIS的最有价值成员”，而奥巴马在这一名号上排名第二。要记住，这是一场有关经济和房地产市场的演讲，所以如果他在这场演讲上说出这种言论，那我们要多听一会儿，看他会深入到何处。

SHAPIRO: Yeah, what did he say about the economy following up on the big economic speech that Trump delivered earlier this week?
SANDERS: Yeah, you know, so this speech is sort of a prebuttal to Hillary Clinton's speech tonight on the economy. And Trump said a few things that he's been saying for a while. He wants massive cuts in regulations. He wants an executive order forcing a moratorium on new regulations from federal agencies. Trump wants to abolish the so-called death tax, and he wants to make the tax code much simpler and make it where there's only three tax brackets.
SHAPIRO: You know, Sam, there seems to be a sense right now that the Trump campaign is kind of going off the rails. This was captured in the cover of the latest issue of Time magazine that shows Trump's face kind of dripping with the headline "Meltdown." When you attend these rallies with Trump supporters, what is the sense there?
SANDERS: It's the opposite sense. I mean the thing that I've noticed this week is that the mood and the takeaway from Trump's speeches is different when you're in the room as opposed to watching Trump on TV.
I actually was in the room this week when Trump made his comment on the Second Amendment which some said call for violence against Hillary Clinton. And in the room at that moment, it wasn't a thing. Some folks laughed it off. Some folks don't even really hear it. Lots of folks ignored it. But it wasn't something that caught people's ears. But outside of the room, as soon as folks saw it and heard it, it was a problem.
You know, Trump feeds off the crowd and no matter the venue or the speech, and he almost always riffs off the crowd to go off script. And those things lead to these comments we hear. It makes him a hit there in the room, and it draws big crowds, but it possibly hurts him outside of the room.
I talked to one Trump supporter last night, Linda Carousella in Fort Lauderdale, and she said that she sees the conflict in Trump's comments.
LINDA CAROUSELLA: I think that he could soften some things up a little bit. Sometimes he says things in the wrong way, and it gets critiqued the wrong way. But that's not his style. He beat 16 people being who he is.
SANDERS: So she knows the style might not be helpful to him all the time, but she and other Trump supporters like it.
SHAPIRO: I want to end by asking you about the candidate's tax returns. A source close to Hillary Clinton tells NPR that she will release her 2015 returns in the coming days. She's already released previous years. Where does that leave Trump?
SANDERS: So Trump has said over and over again that he will not release his taxes because he's under audit. But now he's saying that Hillary Clinton needs to release some 30,000 emails that she deleted during her time as secretary of state.
SHAPIRO: NPR's Sam Sanders on the campaign trail with Donald Trump, thanks as always.
SANDERS: Thank you, Ari.
夏皮罗：对，特朗普本周初发表了重要经济演讲，那他在这场后续经济演讲中说了什么？
桑德斯：好，这场演讲有点像是对希拉里·克林顿今晚将发表的经济演讲的预先驳斥。特朗普在演讲中提到了几件事。他希望对规定进行大规模削减。他想发表行政令，强制暂停联邦机构发布的新规。特朗普想废除所谓的“遗产税”，他想简化税法，将现行税率压缩为三档。
夏皮罗：萨姆，有观点认为现在特朗普的竞选活动有点偏离轨道。这表现在最新一期《时代》杂志的封面上，该杂志在特朗普的脸上打上了头条标题《崩塌》。你在集会现场看到的特朗普支持者有什么感觉？
桑德斯：和你刚说的相反。我这周注意到了一个情况，竞选活动现场的民众和观看竞选活动的民众对特朗普演讲的反应和感觉存在不同。
这周，特朗普就第二修正案发表评论时我就在现场，有人称他是在暗示对暴力攻击希拉里·克林顿。而当时在现场，情况并不是这样。有些民众对此一笑置之。有些民众甚至都没听到。而更多的人则选择了无视。这并不是引起人们注意的事情。可是对不在现场的人来说，他们在看到和听到这一说法时，就觉得这是个问题。
特朗普依靠的是现场观众，无论是会议还是演讲，他都会脱离演讲稿，和观众即兴互动。正是因为这样我们才会听到这些言论。这种行为让他在现场备受欢迎，也让他吸引了很多观众，但是却可能在会场之外给他造成困扰。
昨晚我采访了特朗普在罗德岱堡的支持者琳达·卡罗塞拉，她认为特朗普的言论里存在矛盾。
琳达·卡罗塞拉：我认为他可以稍微缓和一些。有时他说话的方式错了，他用错误的方式发表了评论。但是这并不是他的风格。他击败了16名候选人才获得最终提名。
桑德斯：她知道这种方式并不是一直都对他有帮助，但是她和其他特朗普的支持者一样喜欢这点。
夏皮罗：最后一个问题我想问两位总统候选人的纳税申报单。希拉里·克林顿身边人士对NPR新闻表示，希拉里将在未来几天公布她2015年的纳税申报单。她已经公布了前几年的申报单。那特朗普会怎么做？
桑德斯：特朗普已经无数次重申，他不会公布他的纳税申报单，因为他的纳税申报单正在接受审核。但是现在他表示，希拉里·克林顿需要公布她担任美国国务卿期间删掉的近3万封邮件的内容。
夏皮罗：以上是追踪报道唐纳德·特朗普竞选活动的NPR新闻的萨姆·桑德斯带来的报道，谢谢你。
桑德斯：谢谢你，阿里。