CNN就数据泄露专访扎克伯格：除道歉以外他还说了什么？

What went wrong

什么地方出错了

Laurie Segall: I’m gonna start with just a basic question, Mark, what happened? What went wrong?

cnn记者劳丽.西格尔：我要从一个基本的问题开始，马克，发生了什么事？什么地方出错了？

Mark Zuckerberg: So this was a major breach of trust and I’m really sorry that this happened. You know we have a basic responsibility to protect people’s data and if we can’t do that then we don’t deserve to have the opportunity to serve people. So our responsibility now is to make sure that this doesn’t happen again. And there are a few basic things that I think we need to do to ensure that. One is making sure that developers like Aleksandr Kogan, who got access to a lot of information and then improperly used it, just don’t get access to as much information going forward. So we are doing a set of things to restrict the amount of access that developers can get going forward. But the other is we need to make sure that there aren’t any other Cambridge Analyticas out there. Right, or folks who have improperly accessed data. So we’re gonna go now and investigate every app that has access to a large amount of information from before we locked down our platform. And if we detect any suspicious activity we’re gonna do a full forensic audit.

扎克伯格：这是对信任的严重违背，我非常抱歉发生了这样的事情，我们有保护人们数据的基本责任。如果我们不这样做，我们就不应该提供服务。所以现在所有的责任就是要保证这样的事情不会再发生。为了确保做到这一点，我认为有几件基础的事情要去做。其中一个是，像亚历山大·科根(Aleksandr Kogan)这样能够访问大量数据、然后不恰当使用它的开发者，不应该进一步访问我们的信息。我们要做一些设置，限制开发者对数据的访问量。其次，我们必须要确保不会有其他像“剑桥分析” (Cambridge Analytica)这样的外部公司，我们会对所有有权限访问大量用户数据的APP进行调查，然后锁定我们的平台，如果发现有可疑行为就进行完整的审查。

Zuckerberg: We’re going to review thousands of apps. So, this is gonna be an intensive process, but this is important. I mean this is something that in retrospect we clearly should have done, upfront, with Cambridge Analytica. We should not have trusted the certification that they gave us. And we’re not gonna make that mistake again. I mean this is our responsibility to our community, is to make sure that we secure the data that they’re sharing with us.

我们要开始审查数以千计的应用程序。所以，这将是一个紧张的过程，但这很重要。我的意思是，现在回顾起来，这个工作显然应该是之前就要做的。首当其冲的就是“剑桥分析”。我们不应该信任他们给我们的认证。我们不会再犯这个错误。我的意思是，这是我们对社区的责任，是为了保护他们与我们分享的数据而应尽的责任。

Segall: Will you take legal action against Cambridge Analytica?

西格尔：你将会对剑桥分析展开法律行动吗？

Zuckerberg: Well the first thing that we need to do is actually understand what happened. So, you know, right now we have the report from the Times and the Guardian and Channel 4 that said that they thought that Cambridge Analytica might have access to data still. But the first thing that we need to do is complete our audit there... the short answer is that if we go in and find that Cambridge Analytica still has access to the data, we’re gonna take all legal steps that we can to make that the data of people in our community is protected.

扎克伯格：我们要做的第一件事情就是了解究竟发生了什么。我们现在是从《纽约时报》、《卫报》以及“第四频道”这几家媒体的报道中了解到，“剑桥分析”公司窃取了数据。但是首先我们需要完成内部审计，简单地说，如果我们发现“剑桥分析”仍然使用那些数据，我们将采取一切法律行动，确保平台上用户数据受到保护。

Segall: Respond to the users who say you didn’t get in front of it because we’re here talking about it today.

西格尔：一些用户说你没有直接面对他们。

Zuckerberg: Well, clearly I wish we’d taken those steps earlier. I mean, that, that I think is probably the biggest mistake that we made here ... the feedback from the community and the world has overwhelmingly been, that, if you balance these two values of being able to take your data and some data from friends to be able to have social experiences on other apps on the one hand, this ideal of kind of data portability. And on the other hand, making sure that your data’s always locked down. Guaranteeing that it never goes anywhere. You know I think we’ve started off a little bit on the idealistic, and maybe naive side, right, of thinking that that vision around data portability and enabling social apps was gonna be what our community preferred, and I think what we’ve learned over time very clearly is that the most important thing always is making sure that people’s data is locked down. And that’s a mistake that ... we fixed a few years back and I don’t expect us to make again.

扎克伯格：确实，我也希望可以早点采取措施。我认为这是我们犯下的最大的错误，平台上和外界有大量的反馈……如果你能够平衡获取数据和在其他的应用上获得社交体验，这将是数据移动性的理想情况。但另一方面是确保你的数据永远是被封锁的，永远不会去其他的地方。我认为我们的视角可能有点理想主义，也许也有点天真，认为数据的移动性以及使社交应用能够使用是平台首选。但我也逐渐了解到，最重要的事情是确保用户的数据被锁住。这是我们在几年前修正的错误，而且我不希望再次犯错。

On ’selling data’

Facebook有没有在卖用户数据

Segall: Is your business model on trial here?

西格尔：你们的商业模式正在经受考验？

Zuckerberg: You know, one of the big misconceptions about Facebook is this idea that we somehow sell data. We don’t sell any data to anyone and that’s actually a really key part of the model. Both for protecting people’s personal data and privacy, but also because, you know the competitive advantage of a lot of our services, whether that’s ranking News Feed or ranking search or even ranking ads is that people do share a lot of information on Facebook and therefore we can build better services. So we don’t want data to be able to get out. When that happens, that’s not good for people in our community, that’s not good for our business. So, that’s not actually how ads work on the service and it actually has never been. An advertiser can come to us and say, "Hey, I’d like to reach women within this age range" and if we understand who is in that then we can show that ad but none of that information goes to the advertiser.

扎克伯格：对于Facebook最大的误解就是，我们在以某种方式销售数据。我们不将数据卖给任何人，这是我们公司模式的关键，无论是为了保护人们的数据和隐私，还是为了提升我们服务的竞争优势。因为无论是信息流还是搜索排名和广告，依靠人们在Facebook上分享的信息，我们才能够提供更好的服务。所以我们不希望这些数据被泄露。如果这些（指销售数据）事情发生，这对于平台上的用户来说不是好事，对我们来说更加不是。所以（指销售数据）这不是广告运作的方式。广告主可以和我们说，“嘿，我想让广告触达这一年龄段的女性。”那么我们会知道哪些用户符合并向用户展现广告，但绝不会把用户信息交给广告主。

How Facebook is fighting election meddling

西格尔：Facebook如何对抗扰乱选举的行为？

Zuckerberg: I think what’s clear is that in 2016, we were not as on top of a number of issues as we should have [been] whether it was Russian interference or fake news. But what we have seen since then is, a number of months later there was a major French election, and there we deployed some AI tools that did a much better job of identifying Russian bots and basically Russian potential interference and weeding that out of the platform ahead of the election. And we were much happier with how that went. In 2017, last year, during the special election, the senate seat in Alabama, we deployed some new AI tools that we built to detect fake accounts that were trying to spread false news and we found a lot of different accounts coming from Macedonia. So, I think the reality here is that this isn’t rocket science. Right? And there’s a lot of hard work that we need to do to make it harder for nation-states like Russia to do election interference, to make it so that trolls and other folks can’t spread fake news, but we can get in front of this. And we have a responsibility to do this, not only for the 2018 midterms in the U.S., which are going to be a huge deal this year and that’s just a huge focus for us but there’s a big election in India this year, there’s a big election in Brazil, there are big elections around the world, and you can bet that we are really committed to doing everything that we need to to make sure that the integrity of those elections on Facebook is secured.

扎克伯格：我觉得明确的是，2016年，我们没有做到应该做的，把这一系列问题放到重中之重，不管是俄罗斯干涉选举或是假新闻。但从那之后，我们看到的是，几个月后有重要的法国大选，那时我们采用了一些AI（人工智能）工具，它做得好多了，能够辨别俄罗斯机器人账号，或是在选举之前将俄罗斯意图干涉选举的东西移除平台。我们很高兴事情在变好。在2017年，奥拉巴马州参议员席位的特殊选举中，我们采用了新研发的AI工具，探测出来传播假新闻的假账号，很多账号来自马其顿共和国。我想这里的现实是，这不是火箭科学，对吗？有很多复杂的工作必须要做，要让如其他国家不能轻易干涉选举，不能轻易让坏人和民众传播假新闻，但我们可以做到。我们对此有责任，不仅是因为2018年美国中期选举，这是我们会关注的重大事件，还因为今年在印度、在巴西和世界各国都有大选。我们真的在致力于我们需要做的每一件事，保证在Facebook上这些选举的公正。

Segall: Do you think that bad actors are using Facebook at this moment to meddle with the U.S. midterm elections?

西格尔：你认为有坏角色现在正通过Facebook试图扰乱美国中期选举吗？

Zuckerberg: I’m sure someone’s trying. Right? I’m sure that there’s V2, version two of whatever the Russian effort was in 2016, I’m sure they’re working on that and there are going to be some new tactics that we need to make sure that we observe and get in front of --

扎克伯格：我确定有人试图这么做。我确定现在有了V2，就是2016年俄罗斯做的事情的第二个版本。我确定他们正在为此动作。对此会有新应对方法，我们要保证能观测到并赶在他们之前。

Segall: Do you know what the -- speaking of getting in front of them, do you know what they are?

西格尔：说到赶在他们之前，你知道他们是谁吗？

Zuckerberg: Yes, and I think we have some sense of the different things that we need to get in front of and we have a lot of different folks in the company, both building technology and, a lot of this stuff requires people to review things and that’s one of the big commitments that we’ve made this year is to double the number of people working on security at the company. We’re going to have 20,000 people working on security and content review in this company by the end of this year. We have about 15,000 people working on security and content review now. So I think the combination of building the right tools to identify different patterns across all of our products and having people to review them at the scale and speed that we need is going to be a good formula, but you know, security isn’t a problem that you ever fully solve. You can get to the level where you’re better than your adversaries and they continue evolving, so we’re going to be working on this forever, as long as this community remains an important thing in the world.

扎克伯格：是的，我认为我们对不同的事情有一些觉察，我们需要赶在前面。我们公司中有不同的员工，除了研发科技的员工，很多这类东西也需要员工去审查。我们今年做出的巨大承诺之一，就是将公司负责安全问题的员工数增加一倍。截至今年年底，公司即将有20000人致力于网络安全和内容审查的工作。现在有约15000人在从事网络安全和内容审查的工作。我认为打造合适的工具辨别我们产品中的不同模式，同时让人们大范围快速地进行需要的内容审核，将会是一个好的模式，但是你知道，网络安全是一个永远不可能完全解决的问题，所以只要我们的社区在世界上仍然重要，我们就要一直为此努力。

Segall: Are you specifically seeing bad actors trying to meddle with the U.S. election now?

西格尔：你会特别关注现在正在扰乱美国选举的坏角色吗？

Zuckerberg: What we see are a lot of folks trying to sew division. Right? So that was a major tactic that we saw Russia try to use in the 2016 election. Actually most of what they did was not directly, as far as we can tell from the data that we’ve seen, was not directly about the election, but was more about just dividing people. You know, so they’d run a group for pro-immigration reform and they’d run another group against immigration reform to just try to pit people against each other. And a lot of this was done with fake accounts that we could do a better job of tracing and using AI tools to be able to scan and observe a lot of what is going on and I’m confident that we’re going to do a much better job. Now the reality is with a community of two billion people, I can’t promise that we’re going to find everything. But what I can commit to is that we’re going to make it as hard as possible for these adversaries to do that and I think that we’re going to do a much better job.

扎克伯格：我们看到现在有很多人在努力愈合分裂。分裂是我们在2016年选举中看到俄罗斯试图使用的主要方法。实际上他们大部分事情都不是直接去做，因为我们能够从数据中看出来。不是直接关于选举，而是更多关于分裂人民。所以他们成立了一个团体支持移民改革，又成立了另一个团体反对移民改革，只是为了让人们互相斗争。很多这些都是由假账号完成的，我们可以用人工智能工具更好地追踪这些账号，扫描和观察到正在发生什么。我很自信我们会做得更好。现在的事实是，作为一个20亿人的社区，我不能保证我们什么都能发现。但是我能承诺的是，我们将会让这些反对者做这些事情尽可能困难。我认为对此我们已经做的比以前好得多。

Testifying before Congress

会不会去国会作证

Segall: Lawmakers in the United States and the UK are asking you to testify. Everybody wants you to show up. Will you testify before Congress?

西格尔：“美国和英国的立法者都要求你能够作证，所有人都希望你出现，所以你会在国会作证吗？”

Zuckerberg: So, the short answer is I’m happy to, if it’s the right thing to do. Facebook testifies in Congress regularly on a number of topics, some high profile and some not. And our objective is always to provide Congress, who does an extremely important job, to have the most information that they can. We see a small slice of activity on Facebook, but Congress gets to have access to the information across Facebook and all other companies and the intelligence community and everything. So what we try to do is send the person at Facebook who will have the most knowledge about what Congress is trying to learn. So if that’s me, then I am happy to go. What I think we’ve found so far is that typically there are people whose whole job is focused on an area, but I would imagine at some point that there would be a topic where I am the sole authority on and that would make sense for me to do and I’ll be happy to do it at that point.

扎克伯格：“简单的回答是，如果这是件正确的事情，我很高兴去。Facebook定期在国会就一些议题进行作证。国会做着至关重要的工作，我们将向其提供一些他们需要的信息。我们看到的只是Facebook上发生的活动，但国会可以获得Facebook以外更多公司和情报组织的信息。所以我们要做的就是，让Facebook里知道最多情况的那个人去，如果那是我，那么我很乐意去。到目前为止我们发现，人们的工作通常是聚焦在某一领域，在某一时刻我在一些话题上是唯一的权威人士，所以这对我来说去做（指前往国会作证）是有意义的，我也很乐意在这个时候去做到这一点。

Whether Facebook should be regulated

Facebook该不该被监管

Segall: Given the stakes here, why shouldn’t Facebook be regulated?

西格尔：鉴于这里的风险，为什么Facebook不应该被监管？

Zuckerberg: I actually am not sure we shouldn’t be regulated. I think in general technology is an increasingly important trend in the world and I actually think the question is more, what is the right regulation rather than "Yes or no, should it be regulated?"

扎克伯格：我实际上也不确定我们是否不应该被监管。我认为现在的大科技领域的发展在世界上的重要性越发提高，我实际上在想的问题要更进一步。我想的是，什么才是正确的监管，而不是，“是或否，它需要被监管吗？”

Segall: What’s the right regulation?

西格尔：什么才是正确的监管？

Zuckerberg: Well there’s some basic things, then I think there are some big intellectual debates. On the basic side, I think there are things like ads transparency regulation that I would love to see. If you look at how much regulation there is around advertising on TV and print, it’s just not clear why there should be less on the internet. We should have the same level of transparency required. And I don’t know if the bill is going to pass. I know a couple of senators are working really hard on this, but we’re committed and we’ve actually already started rolling out ad transparency tools that accomplish most of the things that are in all the bills that people are talking about today because this is an important thing. People should know who is buying the ads that they see on Facebook, and you should be able to go on any page and see all the ads that people are running to different audiences. So we actually already have this running in Canada as a test and our goal is to get this running here well before the 2018 midterms, so that way we’ll have that new, higher standard of transparency in place for the 2018 midterms in the U.S. There are broader regulation questions as well, but that’s actually an easy one.

扎克伯格：首先有一些最基础的东西，有一些大型的知识分子辩论。在基本的方面，有的东西我会很乐意看见，像是透明广告法案。如果你看到电视或印刷广告上有多少规定，就会发现不知为何为什么在互联网上的广告监管规定这么少。我们应该对互联网和传统媒介要求同样等级的广告透明度。我不知道这项法案会不会通过，我认识一些参议员很努力地在致力于此。但Facebook已经对此做出承诺，而且我们已经开始推出透明广告工具，完成了现在人们还在讨论的法案中的大部分内容，因为这非常重要。人们需要知道他们在Facebook上看到的广告是谁买的，你应该可以在任何页面看到人们针对不同目标受众投放的所有广告。所以我们实际上已经准备好在加拿大进行测试，我们的目标是让这套方法在2018中期选举之前在美国运行，这样我们为了美国的2018中期选举会有新的更高的透明度标准。当然也有更广泛的监管问题，广告只是比较简单的一种。

Growing pains

最后悔的事

Segall: So you’ve been the leader of Facebook for 14 years. Looking back on all your time, because we don’t get to hear Mark, personal Mark that often, do you have any moments that you look at that are regrets? If you could look at one moment as something you regretted that you really wish now you could have changed or you could have done, what would it be?

西格尔：你作为Facebook的领导已经14年了，回顾这些时间，因为我们不经常了解到马克本人，你有后悔的时候吗？如果你回头看到某个后悔的时刻，你非常希望能改变或者完成它，那会是什么？

Zuckerberg: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, there are so many mistakes that I’ve made. I started this company when I was 19. I was a kid.

扎克伯格：噢，我不知道。我犯过很多错误。我创业Facebook的时候才19岁，还是个孩子。

Segall: What do you say to your 19-year-old self in a dorm room?

西格尔：你会对19岁宿舍里的自己说些什么？

Zuckerberg: I think a pretty common question is "What mistake do you wish you’d not made?" but the reality is you can make a ton of mistakes in your life, no matter what you do and you know, I’ve made, I’ve made every kind of mistake that you can make. I mean I started this when I was so young and inexperienced, right? I made technical errors and business errors. I hired the wrong people. I trusted the wrong people. I’ve probably launched more products that have failed than most people will in their lifetime. But you know I think the thing that makes Facebook work for people, is not that there weren’t mistakes; it’s that we learned from them. Right, and that’s the commitment that I try to have inside our company and for our community is that yeah, maybe you’re not gonna get everything right. The world changes. There are gonna be new challenges that come up.

扎克伯格：我认为一个很常见的问题是，“你希望你没有犯过什么错误？”但是实际上你的一生中会犯下巨量的错误，不管你做什么。你会犯的所有错误我都犯过。当我创办Facebook的时候我还很年轻，缺乏经验。我犯过技术上的错误，也犯过生意上的错误。我雇佣过错误的人，信任过错误的人。我发布的失败产品可能比大部分人一生的还要多。但是你知道，我认为让Facebook为人们工作的关键，不是因为没有错误，而是我们能从错误中学到什么。这就是我试图在公司内部和为我们的社区做出的承诺。也许你不能让每件事都正确无误。世界在变化，新的挑战也会随之而来。

How being a father changed him

成为父亲后的改变

Segall: How has being a father changed your commitment to users, changed your commitment to their future and what a kinder Facebook looks like?

西格尔：成为父亲是如何改变你对用户的承诺的，一个更好的Facebook是什么样子？

Zuckerberg: Well, I think, having kids changes a lot. And-

扎克伯格：我认为有了孩子之后很多都变了。

Segall: Like what?

西格尔：比如说？

Zuckerberg: Well, you know I used to think that the most important thing to me by far was, you know my having the greatest positive impact across the world that I can and, now I really just care about building something that my girls are gonna grow up and be proud of me for. And that’s what is kind of my guiding philosophy at this point is and you know I come and work on a lot of hard things during the day and I go home and just ask will my girls be proud of what I did today?

扎克伯格：我以前会认为，对我来说目前最重要的东西，是向世界尽量做出积极的影响，而现在我只想打造一些能让我女儿长大后为我感到自豪的东西。我现在的指导哲学就是，我白天来上班，做很多困难的事情，然后回家后问问自己，我女儿会不会为我今天做的事情感到自豪。