名人访谈录之Charlie Rose采访杨澜

主持人：中产阶级的崛起有多快？
Host: How fast is the middle class rising?

杨澜：因为很多人将此作为衡量中国发展的重要因素之一。看中国除了出口之外，内需市场是否能建立起来。我想中产阶级发展很快，不过我没有一个具体数字，当然也要看你怎么界定中产阶级，有稳定工作？有房产？
Yang Lan: Because many look at it as an important element of China's growth to find markets internally and serve the markets externally. I think the middle class is growing very fast. I don't have a specific number that I can give you. It also depends on how would you define a middle-class person. A regular job? a home?

主持人：那么你们在中国怎么界定中产阶级？
Host: How would you define middle class in China?

杨澜：嗯，我会说，租房住，买房住，有稳定的工作，事业发展有前景，有孩子，有车。这些是一些基本象征。就拿中国车辆销售的提升来说，这也是正在崛起的中产阶级的象征之一，去年中国卖出了 1 千万部新车，中国正成为所有行业数一数二的大市场。我想这是中国中产阶级正在崛起的一个象征。
Yang Lan: Well, I would say you know, a rented home, a board home. A regular job. A career in sight. Raising children, having a car. That can be some of the symbols. If you think of the rise of car sales in China, I think that would be one of the symbols of the rising middle class. Last year 10 million new cars were sold in China. It's becoming the first or the second largest market for everything. I think that could be one symbol of the rising of the middle class in China.

主持人：当我们谈论中国的政治和变化总会提及言论自由。我们都知道谷歌的争议事件，你怎样定义今天中国的言论自由？
Host: When we look at the politics of China, the changes of China there are always the questions of freedom of expression. We all know about the Google controversy that took place. How would you characterize freedom of expression today in China?

杨澜：仍然有规章制度、审批制度、令人失望的地方，这是肯定的。但我也看到进步，尤其是在互联网普及的情况下，互联网正成为人们对政策发表意见的重要渠道。好的坏的都包括。有不少滥用权力的例子在互联网上被曝光，公众的庞大力量促使政府更及时更透明地作出反应，并直接促使政府修改有关法规和政策，我想这是我们已经取得的进步。
Yang Lan: There are still regulations, censorship, frustrations. That's for sure. But I also see progress, especially through the introduction of internet. It has become a big public arena that more people will voice their opinions about public policies. Pros and cons. And there have been many cases when abuses of power were reported on the internet; huge public outcry will drive the government to be more spontaneous, to be more transparent, and also it directly led to the change of regulations or practices by the government. I think that's the progress we have made.

主持人：那么人权状况呢？
Host: And human rights?

杨澜：拿拘留犯人、服刑犯人来举例，互联网上会曝光那些遭受虐待的案例，事后相关人员被处分，会开展调查并重新修改相关法规。我想这是我们能看到的进步。当然，在一个大国，你每时每处都能见到很多问题在发生。我想现在最受关注的问题之一就是土地征用。人们担心土地因为城市发展被征用时能否得到合理赔偿。怎样算是合理的赔偿？有时候政府和居民有不同的看法。所以我们看到有很多冲突会发生。
Yang Lan: Well, taking the example of people in custody, or people in prison. There were cases reported through the internet. That they were mistreated. And then related personnels were published, investigations were initiated, and regulations have been reshaped. I think those are progresses that we can see. But of course, in such a vast country, you see a lot of issues, problems pumping out every day, in a lot of places. I think right now the major concern is the land usage. People worry about proper compensation for their land, which was taken away for urbanization or development. So what is proper compensation? Sometimes the government and residents may have different perspectives. That's what we see where a lot incidents come up.

主持人：你认识的很多中国人，你的朋友和同事，他们怎么看待今天的美国？
Host: How do you see a lot of Chinese that you know, your friends and colleagues view the United States today?

杨澜：哇，这是个大问题。我想人们觉得美国是一个自由开放的社会。在教育、文化和世界政治等方面有领导地位。但我想很多中国人不同意美国政府在国际上推行的一些政策，尤其是在伊拉克战争等事宜上。
Yang Lan: Wow, that's a big question. I think people look up to the US as it is a free and open society. It's leading in education, in culture, in world politics and so on so forth. But I think many Chinese disagree on some of the international policies that the US government holds. Especially on Iraq wars and so on so forth.

主持人：也有一些问题是有共识的，例如北朝鲜，中美在一些问题上有合作。
Host: But some agree on North Korea. US and China cooperate on some of …

杨澜：是的，中美在很多方面有合作。
Yang Lan: Yes, there is cooperation between US and China on a lot of fronts.

主持人：你怎样看中国，我知道你制作电视节目、开办企业和非政府报刊，但你怎样看中国在今后 25 年在世界上扮演的角色？
Host: How do you think China, I realize you do television programs and entrepreneur activities, and newspapers are not part of the government, how do you think China sees its role in the world over the next 25 years?

杨澜：我想中国在自由贸易方面、环保方面担当更多责任的同时不仅是为全世界着想，也是为我们自己着想。我们不能在健康受威胁的土地上生存。从国内，我们能比外人看到更多问题，我们看到很多的民工只要外汇汇率动摇一点就会工作不保，因为制造业的利润非常低。
Yang Lan: Well, I think while China will take on more responsibilities in terms of free trade, in terms of the environmental protection, it's not for the sake of the outside world. It's for our own people. We can't live on a polluted piece of land with our health threatened. Also I think from an internal perspective, we see more problems than outsiders can see. We see hundreds of millions of workers, who are migrant works, whose jobs are at stake, if the foreign currencies change a little bit. Because the margin for the manufacturing industry is very low.

主持人：你是不是想说中国抗拒货币升值的部分原因是不想影响工人的工资？
Host: You are suggesting that China's resistance to appreciate the currency was in part because it would affect the wages of the workers in China?

杨澜：不仅是工资，是他们的生计。上千万工人的工作会因此受到影响。我并不是站在政府角度来争论这些问题，我只是作为局内人想说我们比外面的人会看到更多的挑战。
Yang Lan: Not just the wages, it's the security of jobs. It could affect millions or tens of millions of jobs. I am not arguing from the government point of view. I am just arguing as an insider, we see more internal challenges than outsiders can see.

主持人：美国人也同样在争论。事实上人们会要求政府增加关税来保护美国工人。
Host: Americans make arguments the same way. In fact, you need to impose tariffs, because you need to protect the American workers.

杨澜：所以双方就需要平衡……对于所有国家的领导人，保护就业是重要问题。
Yang Lan: So I think it's a balance of both… How you protect jobs is an important problem for officials all over the world.